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From Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 July

Category:Non-mainstream science

This category contains two articles, one of which is already in Category:Pseudophysics. Since the other is also a physical theory, I suggest the category be merged into Category:Pseudophysics. (The defining quality of 'pseudophysics' is "have not undergone the critical review process needed in order to be accepted by the scientific community") ---Septentrionalis 15:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

  • "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." -Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology France, 1872 (p.30)
  • "Fooling around with alternating current in just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever." -Thomas Edison, 1889 (p.207)
  • "Airplanes are interesting toys, but of no military value." - Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre (p.245)
  • "To affirm that the aeroplane is going to 'revolutionize' naval warfare of the future is to be guilty of the wildest exaggeration." -Scientific American, 1910 (p.246)
  • "The whole procedure of shooting rockets into space. . . presents difficulties of so fundamental a nature, that we are forced to dismiss the notion as essentially impracticable, in spite of the author's insistent appeal to put aside prejudice and to recollect the supposed impossibility of heavier-than-air flight before it was actually accomplished." -Richard van der Riet Wooley, British astronomer (p.257)
  • "The energy produced by the atom is a very poor kind of thing. Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking moonshine." Ernst Rutherford, 1933 (p.215)
  • "Space travel is bunk" - Sir Harold Spencer Jones, Astronomer Royal of Britain, 1957, two weeks before the launch of Sputnik (p.258)
  • "But what hell is it good for?" -Engineer Robert Lloyd, IBM 1968, commenting on the microchip (p.209)
  • "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -Ken Olson, president of Digital Equipment Corp. 1977 (p.209)
Are you genuinely planning to harass each and every opposing viewpoint? (I'm assuming, of course, that you meant "rigid" instead of "rigged") I was sympathetic to the distinction between "mainstream" and "non-mainstream", just not to its application to Wikipedia. However, it now seems rather clear that you are more interested in enforcing a POV belief in pseudoscience than maintaining this distinction for its own value. Autodynamics, your example, completely falls on its face when presented with experimental data: it is pseudoscience, and not merely "non-mainstream". Relabelling it as merely outside the mainstream is POV. siafu 07:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Is the lack of mainstream approval, touted like a blind butcher ax by the self-appointed judges of the pseudophysics domain, in and of itself, really sufficient to declare science good or pseudo? I think not.

I didn't delete anything, though it's possible there was an edit conflict (you can see here ( that there was no deletion in my edit). If so, sorry, but you'll learn how to recognize and handle that with more experience on wikipedia. As for Autodynamics, one can only accept it as true if you ignore all evidence regarding the existence of the neutrino-- but I'll leave you to research that yourself, it's merely tangential to the discussion. I certainly agree that new theories are "non-mainstream", but how exactly are we to use such a distinction here on Wikipedia? I'm certainly not advocating the removal of the material on the topics included in the category, just that wikipedia not attempt to distinguish between what is in the scientific mainstream and that which, while equally valid, is not (which does not include Autodynamics). A good example, perhaps, is Heim Theory, which is not commonly accepted or discussed due to its previously being published only in German. I would personally classify this as "non-mainstream" but not "pseudoscience", but what good is my personal classification? One could just as easily argue that it is "mainstream", though in the minority. Hence, my vote to delete this category-- I don't see a way to seperate articles on scientific theories and phenomena into mainstream or non- without resorting to simple POV. siafu 15:51, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Where is the source for such statement? Whoever you are Kbdank, you do not even realize that you cannot quote as source a statement in a wikipedia entry made by other members of your cabal and without any attribution. Keep this category 16:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
By the way, while anonymous users are welcome to comment, only users whose accounts existed at the time of the beginning of the poll can cast votes (anon votes are discounted), so continually repeating your keep vote is not meaningful. siafu 17:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Nice dictatorial rules you guys got here. So much for genuine interest on topics and seasoned decisions. I'll take my hat off, and ponder how to deal with such rigged, that's RIGGED votes as the ones you administrators carry on with all of your cyberpowers... 17:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Two clicks would have gotten you here: [1] (,1282,20663,00.html) Written by wired news. Gasp! Oh no! Wired news has been taken over by a Cabal!!! Oh, the humanity! (by the way, I'm Kbdank71, please get it right next time). -- Kbdank71 16:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Kbdank71, whoever you are so proud of your tattoed arm: you're so blind you cannot read? The article you mention states: "Mainstream physicists have considered autodynamics a crackpot theory for decades, and most agree that an experiment at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center in 1984 proved the theory wrong." It does NOT say what you wrote, that "Autodynamics states most scientists consider Autodynamics little more than a crackpot theory"...Can you read your own text? Guess not. 16:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Don't 'what' me. You wrote what you wrote. In factual error. Cannot admit it? Then you have an incurable lack of objectivity. If you don't give a fig about Autodynamics, and yet classify it as pseudoscience (knee-jerk reaction), ethically you should not be in this discussion. Either you care about science, its truths and the struggle for acceptance of new paradigm shifts, or you should have no business here. 17:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • What? Listen, anon, whoever you are, I don't give a rip about Autodynamics, or any other pseudosceintific theory. I'm here to discuss the category, and it's my opinion that it should go. -- Kbdank71 17:02, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Seeing as this discussion is about Category:Non-mainstream science and not Autodynamics, not giving a rat's ass about that particular crackpot theory in now way means that someone doesn't have any business here. If anything, discussing autodynamics itself doesn't belong here; whatever the outcome of this discussion, the content of the autodynamics article will not be affected. Either you care about the category named or you should have no business here; this is not a forum to grandstand about the validity of particular theories. siafu 17:26, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you are mistaking me for the person who said that he didn't care about Autodynamics; I was simply defending kbdank71's viewpoint by noting that the validity of autodynamics is not specifically relevant to this discussion. I would suggest attacking arguments instead of the people who present them; my point stands that wikipedia is not able to make the determination between mainstream and non-mainstream without resorting to POV, whether it be autodynamics or other theories. Can you demonstrate how this is not the case in a convincing way? If not, then I would also suggest that you refrain from harassing other users and ascribing "hostility" and "blind rage" to their reasoned viewpoints. It seems clear that you very strongly believe that autodynamics is actual science instead of pseudoscience; that discussion belongs on Talk:Autodynamics, and not here, as I indicated above. The category is defined absent of the validity of an individual entry. If you plan on simply continuing the name-calling, I would suggest you review Wikipedia:No personal attacks before you find yourself banned from editting. siafu 18:49, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Siafu, don't waste your time. No matter what you say the anon will come back with something. Just ignore him and he'll have nothing to argue against. -- Kbdank71 18:59, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

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